Well, can we?
I'm thinking no. More and more looking at other sites, I think it will never happen. I've brought up Bossk several times over at the other site, sometimes jokingly, sometimes not. He's been made three times. That's an indisputable fact. Each has been better than the last; I doubt anyone would dispute that, either.
But why is no one content with the 1997 Bossk? I can see that being the case with Greedo, also with three figures, all from about the same time as Bossk. He has more screen time, more importance to the movie, and the first figure sucked. Bossk, however, was a frigging masterpiece in 1997, especially for a character who, like him or not, has no real purpose in his three seconds of screen time.
Bottom line (and, as I've said before, I'm singling out Bossk just as an example), we didn't need two resculpts of him. The first one's great. It might not be quite on par with a 2009 figure (or 2001 figure, usually better IMHO than a 2009 figure because they don't go overboard on shitty-looking joints), but he's still a damned good figure.
I've tried bringing this up elsewhere, but get responses that are like Snigtad with a spell-check. No one seems to realize that, if the quality level steadily goes up, there will never be a point, barring some insane scheme by Hasbro to release every possible figure within a two-month period, where all the toys will be on par with one another. And, yet, the multiple sculpts of guys like Greedo, Bossk, IG-88, Plo Koon, etc, just have everyone clamoring for every other figure to be re-done. Hasbro's not stupid; they know a great racket when they see it. If they can keep re-doing every minor character who looks even remotely cool, they theoretically never have to release a new figure unless they really want to. If the possibility of resculpting wasn't around, they'd have to face the fact that they'd have to make figures like Jocasta Nu. As it is, they don't have to figure out a way to release her where she won't gather dust.
There are figures that need improvement, granted. But Hasbro's obviously not paying attention to which figures are most lacking, given the year of release. Dr Evazan, for instance, was shit in 1997, and he's even shittier now. Isn't he more important than a fucking Kyle Katarn resculpt?
I know I'm asking if we can be satisfied and complaining at the same time. But if collectors don't take some level of satisfaction with what we've got so far that doesn't suffer major flaws (like Evazan looking like no character from Star Wars, or Mon Mothma being a statue), it's just going to be re-dos off figures Hasbro knows will sell. I can't really say I blame Hasbro; they do what makes the most money in the safest manner.
But this is why I said articulation is overrated elsewhere. Trouble is, no one (agree or disagree) seems to have paid attention to the fact that "overrated" means "overstated in importance," not "unimportant."
Can adult collectors ever be satisfied?
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anarky
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Can adult collectors ever be satisfied?
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Ran
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Re: Can adult collectors ever be satisfied?
As a whole I don't think collectors will ever be satisfied.
I'll agree that Bossk was fine the first time around. Garindan is another one. Even the first Hammerhead was fine. So was SOTE comic IG-88, but they re-sculpted him twice as well. And how many Boba Fetts have there been? I'm sure there are several others. I skip half of the re-sculpts. The POTF2 4-LOM was fine so didn't buy that last one. I kind of regret buying the new Zuckuss this week because I don't think he was completely necessary. But, fan boys go ape shit for ESB bounty hunters and Hasbro likes cashing in. At least most re-sculpt they've done (not including Luke) have been improvements. The problem is that some of us are dumb enough to buy things we don't need.
Why they re-sculpted the AT-AT driver is beyond me. There was nothing wrong with the last one and he was well articulated.
Which leads to a side rant....I've bought the Falcon Carry Case Wedge and the Rebel Pilot Cinema Scene Wedge. Why can't they release a regular carded Wedge? I'm not buying the Target X-Wing just to get the first decent one.
I haven't seen your post elsewhere about articulation being overrated, but I agree. Didn't they say they have to budged for articulation in each wave because it is expensive? Then they put too much articulation on certain figures (like Yarna) and makes them look screwy. The Saga Endor rebel the prime example of useless articulation. I think he had shoulder, wrist, and elbow joints, but between his pose and his jacket, he may as well been one of those plastic green army men. Need proof?
R5-D4 was the probably the most necessary resculpt done to date. Assuming they don't botch it, Evazan will be the next. Mon Mothma being a statue doesn't bother me that much. Then again, she would probably look better with a cloth robe like the Saga Royal Guard. But is it really necessary? I don't know. I'm not going to be upset if they don't remake her, but I'd probably buy the new one. There are some figures I wish had more articulation, like any of the cantina aliens that don't have knee joints that let them sit down properly.
I'll agree that Bossk was fine the first time around. Garindan is another one. Even the first Hammerhead was fine. So was SOTE comic IG-88, but they re-sculpted him twice as well. And how many Boba Fetts have there been? I'm sure there are several others. I skip half of the re-sculpts. The POTF2 4-LOM was fine so didn't buy that last one. I kind of regret buying the new Zuckuss this week because I don't think he was completely necessary. But, fan boys go ape shit for ESB bounty hunters and Hasbro likes cashing in. At least most re-sculpt they've done (not including Luke) have been improvements. The problem is that some of us are dumb enough to buy things we don't need.
Why they re-sculpted the AT-AT driver is beyond me. There was nothing wrong with the last one and he was well articulated.
Which leads to a side rant....I've bought the Falcon Carry Case Wedge and the Rebel Pilot Cinema Scene Wedge. Why can't they release a regular carded Wedge? I'm not buying the Target X-Wing just to get the first decent one.
I haven't seen your post elsewhere about articulation being overrated, but I agree. Didn't they say they have to budged for articulation in each wave because it is expensive? Then they put too much articulation on certain figures (like Yarna) and makes them look screwy. The Saga Endor rebel the prime example of useless articulation. I think he had shoulder, wrist, and elbow joints, but between his pose and his jacket, he may as well been one of those plastic green army men. Need proof?
R5-D4 was the probably the most necessary resculpt done to date. Assuming they don't botch it, Evazan will be the next. Mon Mothma being a statue doesn't bother me that much. Then again, she would probably look better with a cloth robe like the Saga Royal Guard. But is it really necessary? I don't know. I'm not going to be upset if they don't remake her, but I'd probably buy the new one. There are some figures I wish had more articulation, like any of the cantina aliens that don't have knee joints that let them sit down properly.
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Senor JabbaJohnL
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Re: Can adult collectors ever be satisfied?
Well, it's become clear in the past few years that different collectors want different things. Anarky, you don't need resculpts of every background character. I don't necessarily, either - for instance, someone at the other site mentioned wanting a resculpted Orrimaarko, but I would rather have the third, unmade Dressellian from the briefing scene before another Orrimaarko, and the unmade Dressellian is waaaay far down the list. I want all the unmade Padmé outfits, but a lot of people don't. I still like the clones, and most people here quit those years ago. I don't give a shit about any of the EU figures, but to others, that's the best part of the line. I'm largely "satisfied" in that I enjoy just about everything they put out, even if I have some gripes here and there.
There's the whole idea of a character's importance being cause for them getting a figure. I think that was true for a time, but every truly important character has already been made (and remade). Now that the only unmade characters are background characters, boring characters (let's face it, I want a Cliegg figure, but he's not the most exciting option), or EU characters, the definition is changing for some people. Where once we defined "important" as having the status of Luke, Han, Vader, and even Boba Fett, now people use it to define characters like Admiral Pellaeon, Guri, and Jocasta Nu. The problem is, those characters' action figures would be boring as all fuck. People don't really take that into consideration anymore. And then, while you feel a new Dr. Evazan figure is more important than Kyle Katarn, perhaps not everyone shares that sentiment; the new Kyle was a different costume, and the character has appeared in an absolute ton of EU material, which ranks him above cantina thugs in some people's minds. Apart from that, his comic pack seems to be selling very well. At any rate, a new Evazan will be here in a little over a year. I think the most "important" characters should be the ones who would make good figures, plain and simple.
As for Bossk, I don't think the problem is that people were dissatisfied with the 1997 figure. A lot of people like Bossk, and that includes Hasbro. He's a popular character, despite (or perhaps because of) his limited screen time, so it makes sense for them to keep him in rotation, at least every few years. As we're seeing right now with Saga Legends, they can keep some figures out there for years on end and they're going to sell through, like Darth Vader, Obi-Wan, and Boba Fett. I don't know if Bossk is quite at that level, but he's a good choice to have out there every once in a while, for fans who are new to the hobby. Since new fans who like Bossk are going to get any Bossk figure they see, and Hasbro could just make money off of the old mold, it sometimes also makes sense for them to update the sculpt and articulation to bring in collectors who have been going for a while and get as many people to buy it as they can. (Sub in the AT-AT Driver, or Greedo, or Momaw Nadon, or Plo Koon, or whatever other character you choose, and the argument is the same.) Though nobody wants to believe it, kids and casual collectors form the bulk of the buying audience; people like me are just gravy, so it makes sense to cater to the other two audiences first. Most people want their favorite characters to be up to the modern sculpt and articulation standards, and some people, like you, don't care about one or both of those things and are perfectly content with the first version. But, generally, that's not a common thing.
So, in short, I don't think it's people demanding that these figures be updated, but more Hasbro wanting to deliver modern-quality versions of characters that they know are going to sell. I guess that's kind of repeating what you said, but I think they're doing it from a more benevolent place than you think they are.
There's the whole idea of a character's importance being cause for them getting a figure. I think that was true for a time, but every truly important character has already been made (and remade). Now that the only unmade characters are background characters, boring characters (let's face it, I want a Cliegg figure, but he's not the most exciting option), or EU characters, the definition is changing for some people. Where once we defined "important" as having the status of Luke, Han, Vader, and even Boba Fett, now people use it to define characters like Admiral Pellaeon, Guri, and Jocasta Nu. The problem is, those characters' action figures would be boring as all fuck. People don't really take that into consideration anymore. And then, while you feel a new Dr. Evazan figure is more important than Kyle Katarn, perhaps not everyone shares that sentiment; the new Kyle was a different costume, and the character has appeared in an absolute ton of EU material, which ranks him above cantina thugs in some people's minds. Apart from that, his comic pack seems to be selling very well. At any rate, a new Evazan will be here in a little over a year. I think the most "important" characters should be the ones who would make good figures, plain and simple.
As for Bossk, I don't think the problem is that people were dissatisfied with the 1997 figure. A lot of people like Bossk, and that includes Hasbro. He's a popular character, despite (or perhaps because of) his limited screen time, so it makes sense for them to keep him in rotation, at least every few years. As we're seeing right now with Saga Legends, they can keep some figures out there for years on end and they're going to sell through, like Darth Vader, Obi-Wan, and Boba Fett. I don't know if Bossk is quite at that level, but he's a good choice to have out there every once in a while, for fans who are new to the hobby. Since new fans who like Bossk are going to get any Bossk figure they see, and Hasbro could just make money off of the old mold, it sometimes also makes sense for them to update the sculpt and articulation to bring in collectors who have been going for a while and get as many people to buy it as they can. (Sub in the AT-AT Driver, or Greedo, or Momaw Nadon, or Plo Koon, or whatever other character you choose, and the argument is the same.) Though nobody wants to believe it, kids and casual collectors form the bulk of the buying audience; people like me are just gravy, so it makes sense to cater to the other two audiences first. Most people want their favorite characters to be up to the modern sculpt and articulation standards, and some people, like you, don't care about one or both of those things and are perfectly content with the first version. But, generally, that's not a common thing.
So, in short, I don't think it's people demanding that these figures be updated, but more Hasbro wanting to deliver modern-quality versions of characters that they know are going to sell. I guess that's kind of repeating what you said, but I think they're doing it from a more benevolent place than you think they are.
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Re: Can adult collectors ever be satisfied?
I loved Bossk '97 and he's one of the very few figures I didn't liquidate back in 2006.
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Diabolical
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Re: Can adult collectors ever be satisfied?
Collector's will never be satisfied.
They will piss and moan and buy it anyway.
The only good reason to resculpt a figure is to make it better.
This whole "we haven't done Figure X in a few years, so let's resculpt it!" mentality is irritating.
One example of a good resculpt is the new Slave Leia. The old ones were good (and great for when they were made) but they were able to make this one far better. It's a better sculpt and the second base legs was a fantastic addition. The new one also has a bunch of well-done articulation which manages not to stick out and look fugly.
As for Bossk (or any previously well-done figure), would it really be that expensive for Hasbro to go back to it and retool the first figure's arms and legs and add some articulation, basically improving the old mold?
They will piss and moan and buy it anyway.
The only good reason to resculpt a figure is to make it better.
This whole "we haven't done Figure X in a few years, so let's resculpt it!" mentality is irritating.
One example of a good resculpt is the new Slave Leia. The old ones were good (and great for when they were made) but they were able to make this one far better. It's a better sculpt and the second base legs was a fantastic addition. The new one also has a bunch of well-done articulation which manages not to stick out and look fugly.
As for Bossk (or any previously well-done figure), would it really be that expensive for Hasbro to go back to it and retool the first figure's arms and legs and add some articulation, basically improving the old mold?
"As they say in China, 'Arrivederci'!"
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*For the creation of the Golden Deuce Award.
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anarky
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Re: Can adult collectors ever be satisfied?
I'm not going to deny most (not all, though) resculpts improve on the figure. But if one of the two Bossk resculpts had not been released, would anyone miss it? I'm not talking about knowing it existed and wasn't released, I mean it never, ever existed. What about one of the IG-88, Imperial Guard, Greedo, or Hammerhead resculpts? Would anyone notice if 2009 Malakili never existed?
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Ran
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Re: Can adult collectors ever be satisfied?
My answer to all those questions is no. But, I've bought some of them and will continue to do so depending on the figure and character.anarky wrote:I'm not going to deny most (not all, though) resculpts improve on the figure. But if one of the two Bossk resculpts had not been released, would anyone miss it? I'm not talking about knowing it existed and wasn't released, I mean it never, ever existed. What about one of the IG-88, Imperial Guard, Greedo, or Hammerhead resculpts? Would anyone notice if 2009 Malakili never existed?
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anarky
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Re: Can adult collectors ever be satisfied?
Maybe a better way to ask is, why can't adult collectors not demand everything be redone for the most minor of reasons, and be happy when Hasbro does revisit figures? If resculpts were seen as more of a bonus than a necessity, and were the exception rather than (almost) the rule, it seems like collecting would be a lot more fun overall.
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Ran
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Re: Can adult collectors ever be satisfied?
If I cared about what adult collectors thought, I'd still be posting on the other site. There are better things to do that watch them argue about weather Character X has the right belt and proper pistol. It appears that Hasbro tries to balance kids and adult collectors as best they can. Their figure selection for new and re-sculpted figures can be confusing, but I don't really care enough anymore. They seem to have a good idea which characters are still needed. I'll just buy the figures I want when I see them.
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anarky
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Re: Can adult collectors ever be satisfied?
I bought the Fa'Ce Khunt figure, but almost entirely for the Build-a-Droid part. Looking for the Frassk now.
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Ran
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Re: Can adult collectors ever be satisfied?
I'm hoping Santa brings me the Obi-Three battle pack.
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anarky
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Re: Can adult collectors ever be satisfied?
Oh shit, I forgot about the Obi-Three. I guess they don't really require any customization.
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Senor JabbaJohnL
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Re: Can adult collectors ever be satisfied?
They actually do this a lot. The 2004 Bossk has the same torso as the 1997 one, I believe. Off the top of my head, I know that the current Plo Koon, Agen Kolar, Commander Cody, Jeremoch Colton, Han Solo, R2-D2, and Chewbacca figures all reuse old parts. They confirmed that the 2010 Anakin Skywalker will be most of the 2008 mold (which itself reused parts from the 2005 mold) but add new, better-articulated arms.Diabolical wrote:As for Bossk (or any previously well-done figure), would it really be that expensive for Hasbro to go back to it and retool the first figure's arms and legs and add some articulation, basically improving the old mold?
*IG-88 - The 1996 version was a repack of the vintage version, so that was pretty shitty. The 2000 one was the first all-new one and pretty good for its time, but really short. The 2007 one fucking rocks my nuts right off in terms of sculpting alone. I'm not shitting you when I say it's one of the greatest figures ever.anarky wrote:I'm not going to deny most (not all, though) resculpts improve on the figure. But if one of the two Bossk resculpts had not been released, would anyone miss it? I'm not talking about knowing it existed and wasn't released, I mean it never, ever existed. What about one of the IG-88, Imperial Guard, Greedo, or Hammerhead resculpts? Would anyone notice if 2009 Malakili never existed?
*Royal Guard - The 1997 one is quite tall, but okay. The 2002 one is more in-scale, but too action-posed. The 2005 one has the cloth robe like the vintage version, but not everyone likes that one, either.
*Greedo - The pinhead 1996 one sucks. The 1999 one is not terrible, and I liked it a lot at the time. The 2002 cantina bar release is the same as the 1999 one but with much better paint. The 2004 OTC one is a slightly different version of the 2002 one, but I skipped it. The 2006 VOTC one looks even better than the 2002 one and is better articulated. Hell, use one of them for the countless background Rodians who look and dress exactly like Greedo.
*Momaw Nadon - The 1996 one was okay. The 2002 one is a repaint without the outer cloak; I think they added a skirt, but it's largely the same. The 2006 one is pretty much perfect and shows that the first one was really quite far from accurate.
When I ask for something to be redone, I'm not really complaining, but just suggesting how it can be better if or when they re-release it down the road. I think JT is the same way. There's really not a ton of complaining that I've seen, aside from, say, GothicZartan, but he's either really young or legitimately retarded anyway. I always read it as being constructive criticism rather than pessimistic bitching, but I could be wrong. I suppose I'm surprised that more people haven't been complaining about Cody, given all the comments about the ankles last time. They fixed that, but he still has the same ridiculous tiny head, which is more annoying to me than a lack of ankles.anarky wrote:Maybe a better way to ask is, why can't adult collectors not demand everything be redone for the most minor of reasons, and be happy when Hasbro does revisit figures? If resculpts were seen as more of a bonus than a necessity, and were the exception rather than (almost) the rule, it seems like collecting would be a lot more fun overall.
But, I mean, it's 2009, I have over 1600 figures, and at this point, you can't expect them to only make 100% all-new figures. Just buy what you like and ignore the rest, and YOU will be happy. Don't worry about shit that doesn't matter.
Shit. I can't think of a good signature.
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anarky
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Re: Can adult collectors ever be satisfied?
Some people really are bitching, though, JJL. I'm not saying you're one, but some people can't stop bitching.
I agree 1997 IG-88 was shitty. (He wasn't 100% vintage, though, as they added a waist swivel.) But with those figures that sucked the first time, if one of the resculpts wasn't released, would anyone really notice? Do the shitty 1997 Royal Guard, then do the 2005 one. At least with him, they had an excuse, since the character type appeared in both AOTC and ROTS. There was the "here's an excuse to re-make the Royal Guard and make him not suck" factor in 2002, and they did more in ROTS than AOTC and ROTJ combined (plus they threw in the EU "underwear"), so that one's more forgiveable.
I agree 1997 IG-88 was shitty. (He wasn't 100% vintage, though, as they added a waist swivel.) But with those figures that sucked the first time, if one of the resculpts wasn't released, would anyone really notice? Do the shitty 1997 Royal Guard, then do the 2005 one. At least with him, they had an excuse, since the character type appeared in both AOTC and ROTS. There was the "here's an excuse to re-make the Royal Guard and make him not suck" factor in 2002, and they did more in ROTS than AOTC and ROTJ combined (plus they threw in the EU "underwear"), so that one's more forgiveable.
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Ran
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Star Wars: What's left?
Batman, Grimlock, or Zod can move this into it's own thread if they feel necessary.
What needs to be done and what needs to be redone, and what needs to be re-released? It has been a long time since I've sat down and reviewed all the figures so far. You'll have to excuse me because I'm forgetting a lot of character names.
Characters without figures:
whatever is left from the vintage line: Imperial dignitary, Death Squad commander, Ewoks?
Toryn Farr
Bom Vidum (?) (Alien with black eyes and horns in the cantina)
Any other significant Ewoks
The droids being tortured in Jabba dungeon (Power Droid and the 2-1B looking fellow)
Sgt. Doallyn
Re-sculpts:
Definate:
Endor Rebel
Dr. Evazan
2-1B from ESB
maybe:
Walrusman
Yakface
Weequay
Gammorean Guard
Admiral Akbar
Re-released: (For me, they are going to be mostly figures from sets that I didn't get)
blue Snaggletooth from the Kmart exclusive set
Black/White R5-unit from the hoth battle pack
Imperial officer in black from the Endor set
Rebel in biker scout disguise
That droid from Jabba's palace that is coming out in the EU wave that I'm not buying BG-something
VOTC Yoda
They have to be running out of ESB characters that need to be made.
What needs to be done and what needs to be redone, and what needs to be re-released? It has been a long time since I've sat down and reviewed all the figures so far. You'll have to excuse me because I'm forgetting a lot of character names.
Characters without figures:
whatever is left from the vintage line: Imperial dignitary, Death Squad commander, Ewoks?
Toryn Farr
Bom Vidum (?) (Alien with black eyes and horns in the cantina)
Any other significant Ewoks
The droids being tortured in Jabba dungeon (Power Droid and the 2-1B looking fellow)
Sgt. Doallyn
Re-sculpts:
Definate:
Endor Rebel
Dr. Evazan
2-1B from ESB
maybe:
Walrusman
Yakface
Weequay
Gammorean Guard
Admiral Akbar
Re-released: (For me, they are going to be mostly figures from sets that I didn't get)
blue Snaggletooth from the Kmart exclusive set
Black/White R5-unit from the hoth battle pack
Imperial officer in black from the Endor set
Rebel in biker scout disguise
That droid from Jabba's palace that is coming out in the EU wave that I'm not buying BG-something
VOTC Yoda
They have to be running out of ESB characters that need to be made.